People have a tendency to go back to things, to a way of thinking, to a certain fun thing, to whatever. The tendency to go back is caused by the inevitability of change. You know how they say that people can't change? That's ridiculous. People change all the time. It's just the way and the amount that is in question.
I can learn; I can teach myself; I can study. All those things change me. I can work out; I can run away; I can hurt someone; I can help someone - all those things change me. The fact that we are inside of time and time is moving necessitates that we change. You will never be how you are right now. Not completely.
However, there are some things we cannot change. And there are some things that, no matter how much we want to get away from, we cannot do it alone. Some of these things we can do with help from others, with support from family or friends. Some of these things people just cannot change.
Threnody's post is full of old things she wrote - things she wrote from the time when she claimed Christianity. And it amazes me because the post is FULL of the SAME things she says now. Now, they have no veil of religiosity, but the same things were there before.
The surprising part is not that they're the same things - it's that no one realized BEFORE that she wasn't saved. I don't know if these are things she shared with others, but honestly, writing, "then I hate God" should be a LARGE red flag. There should be NO escaping that. You CANNOT hate God and love Him. That is an impossibility. If you don't love God, you are not saved. You CANNOT hate God and be a Christian.
So, basically, I'm just going to point out all the red flags. Things to think about: Do these come up in my desires, in my words, in my thoughts? These are very important because they reveal the heart.
First section: She craves peace. "There is no peace, saith my God, unto the wicked." Do you have no peace? You're not right with Jesus. John 14:27 records Jesus saying, "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."
Second section: Threnody very well understood the point that people are not worthy of God's love and mercy, that we are sinful. The problem is, she never really seems to get the point that God MADE us worthy. That's why Paul says we can go BOLDLY before the throne of grace. Christians ARE worthy now - through Christ. That's what salvation IS - it's not just being saved from Hell; it's being made FIT for Heaven. I BELONG there now. That's my home. I've read a lot of what she has written - and maybe it's just that those sections don't appear, I don't know - but I don't recall having read anything that accepts that she has been made fit for Heaven, that she is now worthy of God's love because she is clothed in Christ righteousness, that rejoices in that fact, and thanks God for it. Which makes perfect sense if you believe she wasn't saved.
Third section: I started with this one, so just quickly, you cannot hate God and love Him. If there is a Christian who had access to that before Threnody stopped claiming to be saved, they were remiss if they never pointed out that Christians don't hate God.
Parenthetical Note: Those "Christian counselors" were idiots and didn't know their Bibles very well. At the very least, her brother, parents, and ANYONE who had ANY idea of what was going on (or should have had an idea - like, oh, you know, PARENTS) was at fault. To say that it was HER fault is a most absurd and erroneous judgment. Did she have fault in it? Probably some, but honestly, a young girl should be able to trust her brother, and parents ought to be watching their kids. And anyone close enough to those involved ought to be able to see the issues that are arising from abuse like that.
Fourth: God does care. He cares about sparrows; He cares about His kids. Threnody questions things that should have been very clear from the Bible quite often. Where was the faith she claims she had?
Fifth: This seems like the epitome of the whole thing. She wanted to believe it, but she couldn't. She never completely gave it to God. She always held on to something because she was afraid. And you can't do that. God asks for all, and until you give Him all, He's not going to pick you up. In my opinion, the root of reason that Threnody never got saved is because she never fully believed that God would never hurt her.
Sixth: She thought she was in control of her death. Not a very sovereign god she believed in.
Seventh: She actually wanted God to hurt. You know what bothers me more than anything else when I'm upset about something - the fact that my husband gets upset right along with me. Because I'm unhappy then he's unhappy. I really dislike it; makes me try really hard to not get bugged about stuff. Why? We love each other and don't like seeing each other sad or frustrated. Love doesn't like it when its object is unhappy.
Eight- Twelve: After reading the other stuff, it's really hard to read this and not think "Hypocritical much?" She goes from, "God I hate you!" to "You're so real to me now!" . . . . Really? And what happened to His realness that now she doesn't even believe He exists? This is a red flag. Being flip-floppy is a problem; maybe not always a "you're not saved" problem, but a problem nonetheless. Because it's the thing that we keep going back to that shows our heart. It's the habit that reveals us. And her habit was to question God, to NOT trust His promises, to NOT believe that He was Who He said. Even inside these, it's a "I want to" not, "Thank you for helping me." It's "I want to be warm" not, "Lord, you've set me on fire!" It's a desire, yes, but in the context of the rest of the post, it's a passing one. And it doesn't ever seem that those desires came to pass - which, again, not surprising since she wasn't saved. Fervently praying for things like a greater love for God, and it doesn't happen - red flag. Possibly, the problem is you don't have a love for God to be made greater to begin with.
This is getting really long. Maybe I'll finish it tomorrow or later today. For the time being, remember when you read the rest of those things how she labeled that post. Unanswered. All those things that she wanted, she never got. I'm pretty sure she'd say that her post disproves Christianity because she wanted "to serve God." Christianity, however, says that it disproves the veracity of her claims that she wanted it most.
There are lots of people who want to be on good terms with God. That doesn't mean they want it most. So, either you believe her or you believe God.
One last note: there is an interesting thing almost entirely missing in that whole post. Did you notice it? There are emotions that range from hatred to love to depression to joy. But there's this big empty place where gratitude ought to show up that has one little "thank you" sitting there. This is a red flag. If you are a Christian, you have SO MUCH to be thankful for. Even when the excerpts sound like a Christian, they're still missing gratitude. Thanksgiving is an integral part of prayer and worship, and if you find you are not very grateful, you may want to recheck why you think you're saved.
Sad thing is, Katherine and I did notice it. When we questioned her, she denied it and said this and that of her testimony. We waited and watched, and it still didn't add up. So, when Nathanael asked me what we thought, I told him we don't think she's saved. Katy was fuming at us then.
ReplyDeleteSometimes all one can do is pray and do your best to live right. Yes, the words were all over the board, but we remained a constant for her so long as she would have us. Sadly, that lasted only do long as we didn't disagree with her. And, all we could do then was pray.
Good analysis though. Discernment is hard to come by these days.
I know I said I wouldn't come back here again...but I couldn't help myself. I think I said that too.
ReplyDeleteI think you're missing the point of a lot of what I was saying. I also know that several years worth of journals condensed into a couple blog posts are going to leave a lot of things out. I think you can see the gratitude you're missing in several of my quotes, most notably those in awe of just why exactly God would love me. That being said, I think too that you have some good points. I was the only one who doubted my salvation growing up, but I did doubt it a lot. I think many people who struggle with depression do, let alone those who've gone through quite as much as I have. And you're right, what you see there has a lot of red flags in it, and reading it, you're kind of like (if you're you) "Well, it's kind of obvious she was never saved," or (if you're me) "It's kind of obvious there was never salvation there." (Which is kind of a nitpicky difference but it IS somewhat significant.) Just don't forget these are only part of the foot-high stack of journals I went through looking for things to post. But you see, I did what any good Christian does, faced with doubts about their salvation: I prayed. I read God's word. And no matter what the circumstances of my life were, no matter how I FELT, I knew I could trust that when the Bible said, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" it meant it. When it said "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us" it meant just that.
Perhaps (only perhaps) you are right and I was never a Christian. But I thought I was. Despite all the other turmoil going on, it is quite evident that I never doubted my status as daughter to the King of kings. Even when I decided to kill myself, I never doubted that I would open my eyes in heaven. And so perhaps you are right in that I was not saved, based on my actions now...but if I had never left Christianity, if I had continued to live for and serve my God...according to you, I would still have been counted amongst the goats and cast screaming into a lake of fire.
And so I cannot help but cast aspersions on ANYONE who claims Christianity now. You say you have a relationship; so too did I. You say you are a Christian; so too did I. You say you are one of the "elect;" so too did I. You say that you are bound for heaven; so too did I. You judge other's salvation status based on their actions; so too did I. You live your life as a Christian with utmost certainty that you are saved and that nothing can separate you from the love of God; so too did I. You have accepted God's gift of eternal life and rely on him and him alone for your salvation; so too did I. And if I was not saved in all these things...why wasn't I? And how do you know you are?
I probably won't come back here, at least for a while, although I'll admit I am INTENSELY interested in how you finish this post and the later post that is much the same thing. No one has before dared to judge the innermost parts of my being, and I find it somewhat refreshing, to be honest. Perhaps you would be kind enough to email me with your response, and then I can email you back, and we can have something resembling an actual conversation. That would be splendid! Plus, I wouldn't have to type out those annoying captchas...I HATE captchas.
Quick replies before I'm off to bed.
ReplyDeleteBradley: Ah, yeah, sorry. I shouldn't have assumed that no one noticed or said anything. Sometimes I forget that I came into the picture rather late. Thanks for pointing that out.
Threnody: Did you really say you wouldn't be around? I don't recall that. . . . Hm. I had wondered where all my commentators had gone to. Haha. Well anyway, I'll be happy to give you my thoughts on the rest by email if you'd like - I hadn't seen your comment when I posted the newest thing - but I'm probably not going to blog it. And I will email the rest of my response, as requested. Probably sometime tomorrow afternoon/evening.